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	<title>Comments on: Whither scientific publishing ?</title>
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		<title>By: Massimo</title>
		<link>http://expbook.wordpress.com/2012/02/13/whither-scientific-publishing/#comment-2608</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Massimo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Feb 2012 12:45:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://expbook.wordpress.com/?p=7859#comment-2608</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;With journal bundling by the big players, I thought that the costs were spread among disciplines.&lt;/i&gt;

In physics I doubt if this is an issue, as most important journals are published by professional societies.


&lt;i&gt;Everyone could shove whatever they liked into an ArXiv-like repository, but the only journals that would survive would be those like Nature or Science.&lt;/i&gt;

Well, but the current state of affairs seems to contradict this argument. Everyone can &quot;shove whatever&quot; on ArXiv, but some preprints are read (and &lt;i&gt;cited&lt;/i&gt; -- I am sorry but I need to insist on this aspect), other ignored. And we have many more journals in physics than just Science and Nature. Who knows, maybe my model would work better for physics than other disciplines but I don&#039;t see what is fundamentally different about physics.

&lt;i&gt;consigning science publishing to the cut-and-thrust of market forces is not where I would like to see it go.&lt;/i&gt;

... which is why I advocate the diametrically opposite approach of regarding as &quot;published&quot; anything that is uploaded on the archives, and let the number of citations be the real metrics to asses the paper&#039;s worthiness - which is, incidentally, &lt;i&gt;exactly&lt;/i&gt; what we are already doing anyway (I&#039;ll take an unpublished preprint cited 100 times any day over a PRL that is never cited), except that we have to go through a long, time-consuming, expensive, aggravating and ultimately useless process of &quot;vetting&quot; by journal publication.
In my model, journal publication would be essentially only a somewhat more official, &lt;i&gt;a posteriori&lt;/i&gt; recognition of the validity of the work (akin to its inclusion in the &quot;Focus&quot; section of Physical Review Letters, for example), but no more than that. Again, &lt;b&gt;citations&lt;/b&gt; are what matters in the end, &lt;b&gt;not&lt;/b&gt; where the paper is published.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>With journal bundling by the big players, I thought that the costs were spread among disciplines.</i></p>
<p>In physics I doubt if this is an issue, as most important journals are published by professional societies.</p>
<p><i>Everyone could shove whatever they liked into an ArXiv-like repository, but the only journals that would survive would be those like Nature or Science.</i></p>
<p>Well, but the current state of affairs seems to contradict this argument. Everyone can &#8220;shove whatever&#8221; on ArXiv, but some preprints are read (and <i>cited</i> &#8212; I am sorry but I need to insist on this aspect), other ignored. And we have many more journals in physics than just Science and Nature. Who knows, maybe my model would work better for physics than other disciplines but I don&#8217;t see what is fundamentally different about physics.</p>
<p><i>consigning science publishing to the cut-and-thrust of market forces is not where I would like to see it go.</i></p>
<p>&#8230; which is why I advocate the diametrically opposite approach of regarding as &#8220;published&#8221; anything that is uploaded on the archives, and let the number of citations be the real metrics to asses the paper&#8217;s worthiness &#8211; which is, incidentally, <i>exactly</i> what we are already doing anyway (I&#8217;ll take an unpublished preprint cited 100 times any day over a PRL that is never cited), except that we have to go through a long, time-consuming, expensive, aggravating and ultimately useless process of &#8220;vetting&#8221; by journal publication.<br />
In my model, journal publication would be essentially only a somewhat more official, <i>a posteriori</i> recognition of the validity of the work (akin to its inclusion in the &#8220;Focus&#8221; section of Physical Review Letters, for example), but no more than that. Again, <b>citations</b> are what matters in the end, <b>not</b> where the paper is published.</p>
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		<title>By: Isotopic</title>
		<link>http://expbook.wordpress.com/2012/02/13/whither-scientific-publishing/#comment-2607</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Isotopic]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 14:11:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://expbook.wordpress.com/?p=7859#comment-2607</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Is that really true?  With journal bundling by the big players, I thougth that the costs were spread among disciplines.

I have colleagues that edit relatively small journals, put out by their professional society, that survive because of subscription revenue, but I&#039;m sure wouldn&#039;t if they were supported by ad-revenue.  These play an important part in the ecosystem of science and it would be a travesty if they were put down.

I have a hard-time seeing how ad-revenue only (or bulk) wouldn&#039;t evolve into a two-tier system.  Everyone could shove whatever they liked into an ArXiv-like repository, but the only journals that would survive would be those like Nature or Science.  While that landscape for physics might be acceptable, page-views and click-throughs will be fundamentally different between disciplines, simply by the nature of how they use the literature (analagous to the discipline-specific distributions of h-indices).  Some otherwise worthy journals in disciplines such as mathematics and paleontology would just die.

If one is willing to treat &quot;journals&quot; like glossy magazines -consumable and of no real consequence- that&#039;s fine, but otherwise consigning science publishing to the cut-and-thrust of market forces is not where I would like to see it go.

Anyways, your proposal is very though provoking, thanks for bringing it up.  I&#039;m not completely convinced my arguments are correct, but surely they can&#039;t be too far off(?).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is that really true?  With journal bundling by the big players, I thougth that the costs were spread among disciplines.</p>
<p>I have colleagues that edit relatively small journals, put out by their professional society, that survive because of subscription revenue, but I&#8217;m sure wouldn&#8217;t if they were supported by ad-revenue.  These play an important part in the ecosystem of science and it would be a travesty if they were put down.</p>
<p>I have a hard-time seeing how ad-revenue only (or bulk) wouldn&#8217;t evolve into a two-tier system.  Everyone could shove whatever they liked into an ArXiv-like repository, but the only journals that would survive would be those like Nature or Science.  While that landscape for physics might be acceptable, page-views and click-throughs will be fundamentally different between disciplines, simply by the nature of how they use the literature (analagous to the discipline-specific distributions of h-indices).  Some otherwise worthy journals in disciplines such as mathematics and paleontology would just die.</p>
<p>If one is willing to treat &#8220;journals&#8221; like glossy magazines -consumable and of no real consequence- that&#8217;s fine, but otherwise consigning science publishing to the cut-and-thrust of market forces is not where I would like to see it go.</p>
<p>Anyways, your proposal is very though provoking, thanks for bringing it up.  I&#8217;m not completely convinced my arguments are correct, but surely they can&#8217;t be too far off(?).</p>
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		<title>By: Massimo</title>
		<link>http://expbook.wordpress.com/2012/02/13/whither-scientific-publishing/#comment-2605</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Massimo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 06:27:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://expbook.wordpress.com/?p=7859#comment-2605</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;You don’t want a system where a scientific discipline is starved for somewhere to publish because it’s either 1) Not sexy or 2) Small.&lt;/i&gt;

My friend, I have got news for you: that is the way it &lt;i&gt;already is&lt;/i&gt;. In my model at least you have the paper on ArXiv and it can still be cited, if no one journal will pick it up -- and it if gets cited all the time, &lt;i&gt;eventually&lt;/i&gt; some journal will publish it.
Maybe there is no room for all the, say, physics journals that exist nowadays, but I am afraid that they are doomed no matter what we do.

No, advertising should instead be the &lt;b&gt;bulk&lt;/b&gt; of a journal&#039;s revenue, in order to keep publication charges down.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>You don’t want a system where a scientific discipline is starved for somewhere to publish because it’s either 1) Not sexy or 2) Small.</i></p>
<p>My friend, I have got news for you: that is the way it <i>already is</i>. In my model at least you have the paper on ArXiv and it can still be cited, if no one journal will pick it up &#8212; and it if gets cited all the time, <i>eventually</i> some journal will publish it.<br />
Maybe there is no room for all the, say, physics journals that exist nowadays, but I am afraid that they are doomed no matter what we do.</p>
<p>No, advertising should instead be the <b>bulk</b> of a journal&#8217;s revenue, in order to keep publication charges down.</p>
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		<title>By: Isotopic</title>
		<link>http://expbook.wordpress.com/2012/02/13/whither-scientific-publishing/#comment-2593</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Isotopic]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Feb 2012 22:16:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://expbook.wordpress.com/?p=7859#comment-2593</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The problem isn&#039;t with being able to sit through an ad, but that the revenue from advertising is driven by the number of views or clickthroughs.  You&#039;re then going to have a system where the ability of a publisher to make money is then tied to how popular a paper/journal/discipline is.  You don&#039;t want a system where a scientific discipline is starved for somewhere to publish because it&#039;s either 1) Not sexy or 2) Small.  Citation abundance varies considerably from discipline to discipline, which would ultimately translate into variable dollars for publications.

Obviously that would be a bit extreme, perhaps a system where advertising was only a (small?) part of the revenue stream would work ok?  Or some sort of revenue sharing?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem isn&#8217;t with being able to sit through an ad, but that the revenue from advertising is driven by the number of views or clickthroughs.  You&#8217;re then going to have a system where the ability of a publisher to make money is then tied to how popular a paper/journal/discipline is.  You don&#8217;t want a system where a scientific discipline is starved for somewhere to publish because it&#8217;s either 1) Not sexy or 2) Small.  Citation abundance varies considerably from discipline to discipline, which would ultimately translate into variable dollars for publications.</p>
<p>Obviously that would be a bit extreme, perhaps a system where advertising was only a (small?) part of the revenue stream would work ok?  Or some sort of revenue sharing?</p>
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		<title>By: Massimo</title>
		<link>http://expbook.wordpress.com/2012/02/13/whither-scientific-publishing/#comment-2592</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Massimo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Feb 2012 17:57:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://expbook.wordpress.com/?p=7859#comment-2592</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I choose to put up with thirty-second ads for just about any content on European newspapers sites, and most of it is not even stuff I particularly care about... I would be surely inclined to accept it if it was the price to pay for free access to scientific content...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I choose to put up with thirty-second ads for just about any content on European newspapers sites, and most of it is not even stuff I particularly care about&#8230; I would be surely inclined to accept it if it was the price to pay for free access to scientific content&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Isotopic</title>
		<link>http://expbook.wordpress.com/2012/02/13/whither-scientific-publishing/#comment-2591</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Isotopic]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Feb 2012 17:35:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://expbook.wordpress.com/?p=7859#comment-2591</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There is already advertising on the websites of some journals, adjacent to articles.  The HTML versions of papers published in Elsevier journals on ScienceDirect - at least those journals that I frequent - have advertisements that (annoyingly) follow you around on the page.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is already advertising on the websites of some journals, adjacent to articles.  The HTML versions of papers published in Elsevier journals on ScienceDirect &#8211; at least those journals that I frequent &#8211; have advertisements that (annoyingly) follow you around on the page.</p>
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		<title>By: Researcher</title>
		<link>http://expbook.wordpress.com/2012/02/13/whither-scientific-publishing/#comment-2590</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Researcher]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Feb 2012 14:31:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://expbook.wordpress.com/?p=7859#comment-2590</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks Massimo, now I understand your idea much better. I wonder, however, whether the arXiv would agree...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Massimo, now I understand your idea much better. I wonder, however, whether the arXiv would agree&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Massimo</title>
		<link>http://expbook.wordpress.com/2012/02/13/whither-scientific-publishing/#comment-2589</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Massimo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Feb 2012 03:50:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://expbook.wordpress.com/?p=7859#comment-2589</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, no, the link to the journal&#039;s site would &lt;i&gt;replace&lt;/i&gt; the ArXiv version. In other words, anyone wanting to read the paper would &lt;i&gt;have&lt;/i&gt; to go to the journal&#039;s site, which would be such that papers are still freely accessible, but then one would have to see  the ads... The journal would have the exclusive version, so to speak... I think it would be acceptable to most authors and readers...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, no, the link to the journal&#8217;s site would <i>replace</i> the ArXiv version. In other words, anyone wanting to read the paper would <i>have</i> to go to the journal&#8217;s site, which would be such that papers are still freely accessible, but then one would have to see  the ads&#8230; The journal would have the exclusive version, so to speak&#8230; I think it would be acceptable to most authors and readers&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: mareserinitatis</title>
		<link>http://expbook.wordpress.com/2012/02/13/whither-scientific-publishing/#comment-2588</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[mareserinitatis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Feb 2012 02:31:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://expbook.wordpress.com/?p=7859#comment-2588</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s possible...but it&#039;s not as much of a cash cow.  It&#039;s easier to extort money out of people if you keep everything secret.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s possible&#8230;but it&#8217;s not as much of a cash cow.  It&#8217;s easier to extort money out of people if you keep everything secret.</p>
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		<title>By: Researcher</title>
		<link>http://expbook.wordpress.com/2012/02/13/whither-scientific-publishing/#comment-2587</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Researcher]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Feb 2012 00:27:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://expbook.wordpress.com/?p=7859#comment-2587</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sorry, of course I meant &lt;i&gt;pre-print&lt;/i&gt; peer review. The second link came out wrong too. It&#039;s a pity I can&#039;t edit my own comments :(]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, of course I meant <i>pre-print</i> peer review. The second link came out wrong too. It&#8217;s a pity I can&#8217;t edit my own comments <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif' alt=':(' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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